The year 2025 isn’t quite in the rearview when you’re in the business of awards prognosticating, box office analysis, or podcasting about movies.

“Screen Talk” co-hosts Anne Thompson and Ryan Lattanzio’s first episode of the IndieWire podcast does, however, take a look back at the winners and sinners of 2025. Flame-outs from David Zaslav to Kogonada with “A Big Bold Beautiful Journey” are measured up against highlights from the year, including the Marty Supremacy of Timothée Chalamet, or the everywhere-all-at-onceness of Renate Reinsve. For every disappointment like Amazon Studios’ “After the Hunt” came a home run like Michael De Luca and Pam Abdy‘s slate of films over at Warner Bros. We rank our picks on this week’s episode.

Meanwhile, later on the podcast, our guest this week is Kevin Goetz, the CEO of movie testing company Screen Engine. He’s worked on thousands of films and is the published author of “Audience-ology” and “How to Score in Hollywood,” which was released via Simon & Schuster this November. He is also the host of the Don’t Kill the Messenger podcast.

Goetz has watched the business change over the years, but the testing business has stayed pretty much the same, even as paper and pencils have been replaced by mobile phones and AI has proven a useful tool. AI’s future impact on the business is something he is concerned about, though. Legislation should be international IP protection, he said. “It’s going to be a disruption like nothing we’ve ever seen.”

For Hollywood to flourish, there needs to be an increased focus on making the best “elevated” movies on the best topics from studios, mini-majors, and indies, according to Goetz. He thinks producers and studios need to think about what the audience wants. And he explains that, while streaming changed the business forever, the theatrical business will still survive, though likely with fewer movies.

Goetz was rooting for Warner Bros.’ De Luca and Abdy, who took risks that paid off in their great run in 2025: “A Minecraft Movie,” “Sinners,” “One Battle After Another,” “Weapons,” the latest “Superman,” “Final Destination: Bloodlines,” and “The Conjuring: Last Rites.” Goetz reminds us that they were paying attention to the audience. What can the studios learn from Warners? It’s about a combo of guts and banking on talent and making smart budget decisions.

As far as Goetz is concerned, the onset of streaming and rise of Netflix didn’t cause Hollywood’s current problems. “Netflix listened to the consumer, and they were the first to do it,” he said. The consumer is now in the driver’s seat. People don’t go to the movies anymore. They go to a movie. People don’t watch a TV network. They watch a show.

“I don’t think it will ever come back the way it was,” Goetz said. “There are evolutions. They are going to see far fewer films. The films they are going to see are the ones that are elevated. They are experiences (‘Sinners,’ ‘Wicked: For Good,’ ‘Oppenheimer’). The three factors that are behind audience behavior are cost, convenience, and choice. It’s easy to find great content. And there’s so much choice.”

The 2025 box office showed that “quality is the new table stakes,” said Goetz. “The idea of ‘great’ has taken a different definition. ‘Good’ is not good enough.”

On the other hand, his testing business continues to thrive in the advent of so much content produced.

Listen to the podcast in the episode below.